Comments on: Level of ‘levels’ https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/ Clark Quinn's learnings about learning Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:21:55 +0000 hourly 1 By: Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136858 Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:15:46 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136858 Donald, appreciate the dialog. And pleased if Don K did originally talk about other applications than training. But if you go to their site: http://www.kirkpatrickpartners.com/ you’ll see training being the dominant discussion, and the implication of business results from training can be inferred. As I was soundly informed by my colleagues ;). Absolutely right that the levels can be applied more appropriately. I might reframe your #3 to “what knowledge, skills, and resources do they need in order to perform?” Thanks for engaging!

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By: Donald Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136581 Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:46:35 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136581 m sorry for being a pest, but I have to challenge you on the assumption that the four-levels were only designed for courses. I’m looking at the 1994 edition of "The ASTD Training and Development Handbook," edited by Robert Craig. On page 294 there is an article by Donald Kirkpatrick and he writes, "These objectives will be related to in-house classroom programs, one of the most common forms of training. Many of the principles and procedures applied to all kinds of training activities, such as performance review, participation in outside programs, programmed instruction, and the reading of books." NOTE: the objectives he is referring to is the two main points of his article, clarify the meaning of evaluation, and suggested techniques for conducting the four-level evaluation. A couple of those don’t look like courses to me...]]> Clark, I’m sorry for being a pest, but I have to challenge you on the assumption that the four-levels were only designed for courses. I’m looking at the 1994 edition of “The ASTD Training and Development Handbook,” edited by Robert Craig. On page 294 there is an article by Donald Kirkpatrick and he writes, “These objectives will be related to in-house classroom programs, one of the most common forms of training. Many of the principles and procedures applied to all kinds of training activities, such as performance review, participation in outside programs, programmed instruction, and the reading of books.”

NOTE: the objectives he is referring to is the two main points of his article, clarify the meaning of evaluation, and suggested techniques for conducting the four-level evaluation.

A couple of those don’t look like courses to me…

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By: Donald Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136554 Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:07:01 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136554 t believe sweeping the four levels under the carpet is the answer because they are still drilled into everyone minds even if do not mention them. I have been through several change initiatives and one thing I know is that you confront and challenge obstacles rather than ignore them because they still persist in one form or another. Kirkpatrick made two mistakes with his levels – he presented them backwards (which imprinted them upside down in people’s head) and he used reaction rather than what we now know is more important – motivation. Thus, rather than trying to hide it, we transform the tool into a more useful heuristic: 1. What impact (outcome or result) will improve our business? 2. What do the employees have to perform in order to create the desired impact? 3. What knowledge and skills do they need to learn in order to perform? (courses are the LAST answer) 4. What do they need to perceive in order to learn and perform? (do they see a need for the desired performance?)]]> Hi Clark,
I read your latest post, which is very good as it takes this discussion to the next level. Part of the problem is that we believe a tool implies a course, however it is people who imply a course because of their misunderstandings. For example, a few weeks ago I wrote a post on my blog on the misconception that ISD was created to only build courses. I was taught my basic skills by one of the masters of training and development, the U.S. Army, and the manual on ISD (dated 1983) we were given specifically states that a course should only be used if the task cannot be adequately trained elsewhere, such as OJT or Job Performance Aids (I still have the manual). Yet one of the chief complaints about ISD is that ISD was specifically designed to build courses! And the problem is that as you note in your post is a “lack of degree, old-style instruction, myths, templates, the list goes on.”

It is not a tool problem – it is a people problem!

To answer your question about smile sheets being the main source of evaluations – knowing is not doing. For example, starting around 1990, every major magazine of our craft, such as Training Magazine and ASTD, printed articles almost every month hammering the fact that we need to step up our evaluation efforts by going to level 3 and 4. In addition, Jack Phillips was frequently mentioned or wrote articles about the need to do impacts and ROI. Handbooks, such as those produced by ASTD, also explained in detail about the need to raise our levels of evaluation.

But again, knowing is not doing.

As far as changing it, I don’t believe sweeping the four levels under the carpet is the answer because they are still drilled into everyone minds even if do not mention them. I have been through several change initiatives and one thing I know is that you confront and challenge obstacles rather than ignore them because they still persist in one form or another.

Kirkpatrick made two mistakes with his levels – he presented them backwards (which imprinted them upside down in people’s head) and he used reaction rather than what we now know is more important – motivation. Thus, rather than trying to hide it, we transform the tool into a more useful heuristic:

1. What impact (outcome or result) will improve our business?
2. What do the employees have to perform in order to create the desired impact?
3. What knowledge and skills do they need to learn in order to perform? (courses are the LAST answer)
4. What do they need to perceive in order to learn and perform? (do they see a need for the desired performance?)

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By: Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136360 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:11:11 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136360 Donald, i guess I mean that too often, executives, clients, vendors, and more, have either a vested interest in selling a ‘course’ solution, or an obliviousness to the alternative. You’ve got to admit we’re still seeing courses in many instances when they’re not the right solution. That’s what I’m fighting for; bringing a broader repertoire to the table instead of the ‘course’ hammer. That’s what HPT’s about, too. But if you immediately start talking Kirkpatrick, you’ll start talking about a course to impact the metric, and then you end up with people thinking Level 1, or *maybe* Level 2 is sufficient. The proof is in the environment: how long has Kirkpatrick’s model been around, and yet how often do we see smile sheets as the only evaluation? QED

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By: Donald Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136318 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:07:25 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136318 Clark, I’m not sure if I agree with your statement, “but I do not want to make it easy for others to slip into using training as the only tool.” It almost sounds like you mean our profession is not so bright so we have to dumb things down (spoon feed them).

Yes, the four levels were originally designed for training, but it has evolved over the years. Lets give our profession some credit that if we use the four levels in the proper context, they will be smart enough to realize that we are not offering training as the only solution, but a broad range of performance solutions – and depending on the type of audience, we might have to give them a few hints :-)

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By: Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136312 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:11:28 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136312 Donald & Dan, you’re doing the same abstraction I unconsciously did. What Kirkpatrick *talks* about is using the framework for training. I agree (and so said) that it could be used more broadly, but I do not want to make it easy for others to slip into using training as the only tool. As my colleague Harold Jarche says: “Where there is a genuine lack of skills and knowledge, training may be required, but it should only be in cases where the other barriers to performance have been addressed”. I think we’re agreeing furiously.

And, David, I think if we *do* the abstraction, there’s nothing inherently wrong with the model. ROI can mislead, but that’s a separate issue, I think. If we’re truly focusing level 4 on business goals, we have the argument for the execs. Analytics and data are part of this, for sure, but for once I’ll be the conservative one and say not to throw out the proverbial baby!

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By: David Glow https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136115 Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:41:06 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136115 Two thoughts here:

1. I often here “training departments don’t measure to level 4” along with excuses of not enough resources, not enough perceived value, etc. I think that shows the misinterpretation and misapplication of the intent.

2. Dan Pontefract said it best in his CLO article: the model has flaws, and hasn’t evolved. I think what Dan was proposing was very powerful- we’ve drawn from this model for too long- we need an evolved or new model that builds upon the core intent.

Don started the conversation and gave us a beginning model. As an industry, we need to continue the discussion instead of just beating up on an imperfect model. And, let’s be honest- businesses ALL run on imperfect models (sales forecasts, financial models…) so, I don’t expect our industry’s model to be perfect either.

So, Kirkpatrick’s model has issues. ROI is a false numbers game. Rainbows and Unicorn…that being said, we often need to clearly show the C-suite how our role in the organization contributes to it’s success.

So, where’s the great new model?

I am excited about this era of big data and analytics. We now have the tools to look at work activity streams, ecosystems, collaborative actions in workspaces and run analytics to find trends. What activities are correlating to success? What discussions are HiPos engaged in? What shared resources are used most by top performers? What communities are successful people in the organization participating in?…

It will take some time to even ask the right questions. Much more (and a lot of guesswork and mistakes) to identify the trends properly. But, we’ve entered an era when we can take measurements of the work and it’s support activities (the embedded learning)- direct from the workstream. And hopefully learn how to participate in that more seamlessly.

I am ready to evolve.

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By: Dan Roddy https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136090 Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:50:56 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136090 Clark

I’d side with the pre-epiphany you in that I’d feel comfortable citing Kirkpatrick whatever the solution in mind. However, just because Kirkpatrick may be wrong in his final analysis, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it undermines the general case, or make his model any less useful.

What about lack of resource as a barrier to more than L1 analysis? It’s my experience that most people are aware of the need to go deeper in their research, but they find it a challenge to do so under pressure to solve the next problem.

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By: Ryan Tracey https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136079 Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:58:48 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136079 As with everything, Kirkpatrick is highly dependent on context. Yes, the model is based on the concept of a “course”, but from their perspective I can see that it makes sense to do so. It’s an easy example for the public to understand.

I agree that they should modernise the model to incorporate performance support and non-training solutions, but nevertheless I don’t see it as a show stopper. For me, Kirkpatrick is another model that I assume into my own context.

I really like your interpretation of the four levels, Clark, and I doubt whether any learning professional could argue with their importance – whatever they’re labelled!

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By: Donald Clark https://blog.learnlets.com/2012/01/level-of-levels-how-kirkpatrick-is-wrong/#comment-136014 Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:17:02 +0000 http://blog.learnlets.com/?p=2390#comment-136014 reaction as being oddly strange. If Dr. Cooper of Motorola thought along those lines we would not have the cell phone – the phone was only designed for the home! It is NOT meant to be carried with you! If Steve Jobs thought the same way – the cell phone is only good for making calls! People need to buy our iPod Touch if they want Apps and buy someone else’s cell phone if they want to make calls. Apple will NEVER make an iPhone! People want to carry two devices and three if they also want a camera! I see Kirkpatrick’s levels useful for many performance and learning solutions: 1. Is it having the desired impact (outcome or result) that will improve the performance of our business? 2. What do the employees have to performance in order to create the impact? 3. What knowledge and skills do they need to learn in order to perform? 4. What do they need to perceive in order to learn (do they see a need for the desired performance?)? And none above means they need training (and training does not always mean courses). For example a simple job aid might suffice for supplementing their skills. Just because something was designed for one thing does not mean it cannot be adapted to do other useful things.]]> Clark, I find your colleagues’ reaction as being oddly strange. If Dr. Cooper of Motorola thought along those lines we would not have the cell phone – the phone was only designed for the home! It is NOT meant to be carried with you!

If Steve Jobs thought the same way – the cell phone is only good for making calls! People need to buy our iPod Touch if they want Apps and buy someone else’s cell phone if they want to make calls. Apple will NEVER make an iPhone! People want to carry two devices and three if they also want a camera!

I see Kirkpatrick’s levels useful for many performance and learning solutions:

1. Is it having the desired impact (outcome or result) that will improve the performance of our business?
2. What do the employees have to performance in order to create the impact?
3. What knowledge and skills do they need to learn in order to perform?
4. What do they need to perceive in order to learn (do they see a need for the desired performance?)?

And none above means they need training (and training does not always mean courses). For example a simple job aid might suffice for supplementing their skills.

Just because something was designed for one thing does not mean it cannot be adapted to do other useful things.

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